This interview was conducted in person in the fall of 2015, but the questions and responses remain relevant, and will be so for the foreseeable future.

The Representative: Born in Worcester, Mass., Jim McGovern is currently serving in the U.S. Congress as the representative of Massachusetts’s second congressional district. Rep. McGovern is currently serving his 10th consecutive term in Congress, since his election in 1996. A member of the Democratic Party, McGovern is one of the most liberal members in the House. He has been a consistent contributor to the creation of legislation involving the resolution of human rights issues.

In 2013, Rep. McGovern was responsible for sponsoring a simple resolution in the House that called on the Burmese government to end discrimination against the Rohingya people. The United States House resolution on persecution of the Rohingya people in Burma is a proposal (without true international legal power) that ultimately called for the Burmese government to give the Rohingya people international recognition as an ethnic group.

The interviewer: Jordan Deschenes is a graduate of the University of Massachusetts with a bachelor's degree in Journalism. He credits the Arab Spring and The Daily Show for getting him involved in writing and reporting.

Odyssey: What actions have you taken in Congress or causes have you championed to improve the lives of college students and recent graduates in your district?

Rep. Jim McGovern: Well, many actually. Everything from trying to expand Pell grants to making colleges loans more affordable to making grant assistance available to those wanting to get a college education, and I think that, you know, if I had my way, we would invest much more in relieving the burden of a four-year college education. But, again, everybody who wants to get a college education ought to be able to get one and no one ought not to get one because they can’t afford it. Beyond that, I’ve invested in medical research and the National Science Foundation and in other research programs dealing with agriculture to try to expand opportunities for those looking to go into one of those fields when they graduate from college. I’ve also invested a great deal of time on ways to kind of improve our infrastructure in Massachusetts so that a lot of the jobs of the future will come to Massachusetts, because that’s an important incentive for jobs. The other thing I’d just say is that I’m proud of the fact that I’ve spent a lifetime trying to fight against war and against needless conflict around the world. I don’t want this generation, or the next generation, or the generation after that have to get sucked into yet another war that puts the lives of a lot of our young people at risk and also bankrupts our country.

Odyssey: Getting back to the Pell grants, I know that you were involved in the education act of 1996. You put in an amendment that had something to do with Pell grants and that was for students who graduated top of their class, correct?

Rep. McGovern: Yeah, my deal was that the Pell grant in it of itself is inadequate for the needs of those who are going to college today. It’s not enough, and we need to expand it. Pell grants should have been keep up with inflation over the years, which they haven’t done, and so what people get is not enough, you know. I’m dealing with the realities of a Congress who doesn’t invest another penny in education and is trying to figure out ways of making more people to be able to get more grant assistance in the form of Pell grants to go to school. And one of the proposals I had back then was that you know, for those who graduate near the top of their class, I don’t remember right now off the top of my head, I have the top 10%. They can get an increase in the amount of Pell grant assistance they receive. Grants are important, but if grants are inadequate to meet the cost of an education, then you know, they’re not as helpful as they could be.

Odyssey: And again, the Pell grants only have the use of paying for tuition?

Rep. McGovern: Yes.

Odyssey: This brings me to the second question: Increases in college tuition have been outpacing inflation for a few decades, and now the amount of student loan debt has surpassed the credit card debt held by all Americans. What specifically can Congress do to rein in these costs? And resolve the issue itself.

Rep. McGovern: Well, there are a couple of things. One is that I work with [Senator] Elizabeth Warren on legislation that she has proposed to try to reduce the amount of interest on the loans that the students take out when they want to go to college. I’ve tried to fight to increase grant assistance, but look, the answer at the end of the day is that if education is a priority then we as a nation need to invest more in education. I support the president’s proposal to allow people to get two years of community college for free. I would go one step further to say that you ought to be able to go to two years of community college free or whatever that amount is, you ought to be able to take that and put it in any private college or university you want. I think people ought to be able to have a choice where they go to school.

We also have to realize that the cost of living in the country has gone up, so that colleges and universities have to pay their professors an adequate salary, they have to repair buildings, they have to invest in health insurance, and you know, heating and cooling of the buildings, plus all the cost of maintaining a college or university. So to those who say that the colleges or universities ought to lower their prices, to the extent that they can yes, they ought to, but let’s be real enough to know that they have expenses that they have to deal with, and so if we really want to get at this issue of college affordability, then the federal government is gonna have to play a major role in this.

In other countries around the world, their governments subsidize education at a much higher rate than we do, and the rationale for that is that a well-educated economy is good for the workforce. After World War II, Congress passed this legislation called the GI Bill of Rights. Everybody who served in World War II and came back was entitled to a free college education. It cost the government a lot of money, but it was worth it. The investment that the government made in those educations paid for itself a hundred fold with one of the most highly skilled workforces in the world. And our economy boomed. So look, if education is a priority, then look we need to invest in it. If you can figure out a way to do this without costing anything, I’m all ears, but if politicians believe what they say and that is we need a well-educated workforce for the 21st century, then we ought to put our money where our mouth is. We ought to make sure we vote in a way that provides the incentives, the subsidizes, the grants, the loans – whatever it takes to make sure the people get a good college education.

Odyssey: From what I’ve observed at UMass Amherst, the biggest thing that we’re getting trained in is the use of electronics. Kids 18 to 30 years old are pretty tech-savvy nowadays compared to the other generations, and I think that’s one thing that we should definitely build upon, that this generation has technological capabilities that most others don’t have. For my third question: Beyond these, which three political issues affecting 18 to 30-year-olds aren’t being talked about enough?

Rep. McGovern: Well, clearly people need to make not a minimum wage, they need to make a livable wage. There are lots of people in this country working at minimum wage, who earn so little that they still need food stamps and other government to make ends meet. So, we ought to be pushing for a nationwide livable wage, so that’s one thing.

Two, I think that one of the challenges – and I hear this all the time, when I travel throughout my own congressional district, and UMass does a very good job with this, not to critique – but for some of our colleges, they need better relationships in the business and industry where they’re located. I travel around my district and there are a lot of manufacturing jobs that pay a very good wage, where they’re having trouble finding a skilled workforce. There are jobs available that pay a decent wage, but they can’t find people who have the skills to be able to do it. Manufacturing today is much different than when I was a kid, or when my father was into manufacturing, in that it requires a lot more skill. You mentioned earlier about how the students today are more tech-savvy, well, you know, manufacturing today requires a lot of tech savvy. What we need to do is, there needs to be better coordination in terms of helping to make sure that whatever we’re training you for, that there are opportunities in that field.

And you know, look, I’m someone who majored in history, so I am in no way trying to demean the importance of a liberal education. I think we need people who major in history, we need people who major in literature, we need people who major in the classics. I think that is very important. We want to make sure that we do not lose our culture as we talk about education priorities, but we also need to make sure that we are meeting the demand out there for a skilled workforce and I think we can do a better job of that.

UMass has a great agriculture school and one of the things that I’ve found very exciting is that -- I’ve talked to a lot of the students and faculty, who are interested in a career in agriculture – is that’s an area that requires skill and that’s an area where we need people to pursue careers in. We need food. I’m a big believer in a 50-state farm policy. I think that in Massachusetts, we need to support our local farms, we need to have more farmers. I want us to be more self-sustaining agriculturally. I think UMass is one of the schools that provides the skills and practical experience that can help pave the way for more people to go into that field.

Odyssey: Do you think that an education is more important, or learning the skills; either from an apprenticeship or from your father or mother if he or she does the job? Do you think that there should be a change in the way that we learn?

Rep. McGovern: I think that both are important. And I think an education is important. Look, even if you go in to farming today, again, it is much more complicated than it was when I was growing up, or my father was growing up, or my grandfather was growing up. Careers that required basic skills a half century ago today require the opposite. And a lot of those skills you can learn through apprenticeship programs, but a lot of them you have to learn in the classroom. I also believe – I have a son, he’s 17 and were trying to figure out what he’s going to do after he graduates from high school – but one thing that I think is important, and I told him, I said, “I don’t care if you want to be a plumber, or a lawyer, or a doctor, or a teacher. You can be whatever you want to be. But I do think that it’s important that in your four years of college, you do get exposed to a good liberal arts education.”

I want him to be able to walk into an art museum and appreciate a good painting. I want him to be able to go to a concert and appreciate good music. I want him to read Hemingway. I want him to know what good literature is. When I think of a college education to me, it’s an opportunity to expose people to a whole bunch of different things.

I mean, it's about not just providing you with the skills to go into the workforce, but it’s also about kind of helping you become a good member and an interesting member of our community. I want you to go to college and take political science courses to understand the importance of participating in the life of your community.

I’m a Democrat, but it doesn’t matter whether you’re Democrat or Republican, I want you to leave understanding that as a citizen, you have an obligation to give something back to your community. It doesn’t mean that you have to run for office, but it means you have to pay attention, it means you have to care; it means you have to be involved. I look at college as an opportunity to get you exposed to a lot of things. Yea, I hope you get some practical skills, but I also want to make sure that you’re getting a good appreciation of a range of other things as well.

Odyssey: Congress has a notoriously low approval rating among Americans, regardless of the party in control. Why is the branch that’s supposed to represent the people thought of so poorly by them?

Rep. McGovern: Yeah, I think a couple reasons. One is the redistricting. The way we draw the maps of congressional districts seemed aimed more at giving individual members of congress a stronghold rather than district that represents a diverse opinion. So we get a lot of people elected down here from really narrowly drawn districts that don’t actually represent the majority in the country. They represent a narrow majority in this little area that’s been carved out for them. And as a result, they tend to be more obstructionist than people who come here and try to get things done. And I always remind people that everyone who serves in the United States House of Representatives has been elected. That’s the only way you can get here.

People vote for their individual members of Congress, but because of the way the districts have been drawn, I think that often times, there’s a very narrow approach to issues. I think the other thing that’s been a real problem here is the influence of money. I think there’s too much money involved in politics. I think that corporations, big money, special interest, play too much of a role in electing members of congress, or electing members of the Senate, or electing the president of the United States. I think we ought to have a real campaign finance reform, I think we ought to have limits on how much people can spend in campaigns, I believe in public financing of campaigns, I think we ought to even the playing field and empower average people more than we empower big corporations and big money special interest.

Odyssey: What’s one specific policy issue on which you’ve bucked your party’s position?

Rep. McGovern: I’m a Democrat, so I believe in most of their policies, you know what I mean? I’ve disagreed with the president on a number of things. I disagreed with him on his trade bill because it’s not in the interest of the American worker. I’ve disagreed with him on the war that we’re now engaged with against the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria. I don’t think the answer to fighting ISIS is more war.

If by the Democratic Party you mean the president of the United States, I’ve disagreed with him on issues of trade and more war. I’ve disagreed with him on issues of privacy and surveillance. I’m against the PATRIOT Act, you know, the federal government having an unchecked role in monitoring the behavior of citizens in this country without the need for a warrant or a judge’s approval. So, I’ve disagreed with him on some of those issues as well. I think people ought to have their privacy and ought not be put under surveillance unless you’ve gone to get a court order or a judge says there’s sufficient evidence to do so. So I disagree with the president on a number of things.

Odyssey: And it seems that a lot of people feel that way as well. Along the way, since you were elected to office in 1996, for my next question: which vote do you most regret making and why?

Rep. McGovern: Well, I voted against the [John] Warner [National Defense Authorization] act, but I initially voted for the authorization for war in Afghanistan. That was back after Al Qaeda hit the Twin Towers. And at the time, it was advertised as military action to go after those who were responsible for the attack on the Twin Towers, and that’s what I voted for. If I knew then what I know now, I would not have voted for that because I think the Bush administration took that limited authorization and has turned it into an authorization so broad that we are still in Afghanistan today fighting a war. So nobody knows whom we’re fighting anymore. Al-Qaeda isn’t there and we’re fighting out the Taliban, which was not responsible for the attack on the Twin Towers, Al Qaeda does.

We got Osama bin Laden not with 100,000 troops, but with a small, well-trained group of Navy SEALs in Pakistan. We got him, he’s gone, but we’re still at war in Afghanistan. I look back and I thought it was appropriate, to hold those responsible for 9/11 accountable. What I didn’t anticipate was that the Bush administration and even now the Obama administration would take authorization and turn it into a never-ending war in Afghanistan.

So again, if I knew then what I know now, I would not have voted for that authorization.

Odyssey: My next question is, since 1965, who was the best president not named Barack Obama or Bill Clinton and why? [The question was asked this way to remove the most likely choices for the Democratic congressman. Republicans Odyssey interviewed were asked the same question, excepting Ronald Reagan.]

Rep. McGovern: Since 1965? You know, I would say Lyndon Johnson would probably be the best president, although I strongly disagree with him on the Vietnam War, but in terms of domestic policy – he gave us the Great Society, he gave us important civil rights legislation, and helped vitally in helping fight poverty and hunger in this country. I think he helped an awful lot. I think with the exception of the Vietnam War, I think he had a good record domestically.

Odyssey: Ok. Here’s a question with what you were talking about – money and politics. Which interest group or lobby has the most undue influence on Capitol Hill, and why?

Rep. McGovern: The National Rifle Association and the oil and gas industry. It’s because they have deep pockets and spend a lot of money and scare the hell out of members of Congress. I think as a result, we can’t even get universal background checks when it comes to guns. As a result, we can’t even pass the most minimalist climate change bill because the oil companies and the gas companies don’t like it. I’ve introduced two bills, two constitutional amendments, one that limits the amount of money that is spent in campaigns and regulates campaign spending – which we can’t do now because the court has decided that money equals free speech and has overturned most of the thoughtful campaign finance reform laws that we have. The second constitutional amendment that I have would be to make it clear that corporations are not people. There have been an increasing number of court cases that have embraced this corporate precedent movement, basically saying that a corporation has the same rights as you do or I do, and I reject that very much. I don’t want to empower artificial entities in our lawmaking process.

Corporations don’t fight in war, they don’t die in wars, they don’t have kids; people do. And what has bothered me over the past 20 years has been the growing influence of Big Money and the growing influence of Big Corporations and I think that unless we check that and bring some balance to that, then I worry very much about the future of our country.

Odyssey: The gap between the rich and poor continues to get bigger and is on many people’s minds What statistical indicators do you use to analyze this? What is your solution?

Rep. McGovern: What is see is we’ve kind of lost our values and lost our soul. We need a strong business community. We need a strong small business community, a strong medium business community, and I don’t have anything against big business. What I have a problem with is when working people get exploited, when you have big corporations making zillions of dollars and are paying employees minimum wage when they can certainly afford to pay them a livable wage, when the only thing that matters is profit.

One of the lessons that I think we should learn from the recent economic crisis that we’ve had is that greed got out of hand. You had financial institutions, corporate interests that were decisions for a small group of people at the top, but they couldn’t give a damn about the people in the middle, the people at the bottom. I know a lot of business executives, CEOs, whom I think are good people and good corporate citizens. I also know a lot who are lousy corporate citizens. I what we need to do here in the federal government is to bring some rationality to all of this.

We want businesses to succeed, but it doesn’t do us any good for a business to succeed if everybody employed by that business gets paid slave wages or gets paid so little that they still need food stamps to put food on the table. That’s why we want a livable wage. That’s why we want shareholders in a corporation to have some say over a CEO’s salary. That’s why we want more transparency, that’s why we want more checks and balances when it comes to corporate behavior. I’m not against successful business; we need successful businesses. I just want people who do well in business to treat others who work for them, who help them build up their business; I just want them to be treated with respect as well.

Odyssey: What does the word “equality” mean to you and how do we achieve it as a country?

Rep. McGovern: Equality means that everybody gets treated, you know, the same, and has the same opportunity to succeed. You can’t have equality when some people can afford a college education and others can’t, and therefore don’t get one. There’s the issue of--we need to address economic inequalities. I think we can do that by increasing wages and making sure that people have decent healthcare benefits and retirement benefits. There’s also racial inequality in this country, which is a big problem, which is linked to economic inequality, but it’s different. There are people in this country who are denied opportunity based on the color of their skin and we need to figure out ways to, you know, deal with it, better than we have been.

There are inequalities under the law. I get treated differently by a police officer when I get pulled over for speeding than someone who’s African American, or Latino, but to me, we’re all different. We have a very diverse country and we ought to celebrate that diversity. But everybody, everybody, I don’t care who you are, I don’t care whether you were born rich or poor, deserves a fair shake. And I don’t think that’s the case in this country right now. The inequality continues to grow and we need to do more than just complain about it, we need to address some of the institutional problems that have caused it.

Odyssey: Finally you could have a drink with any non-politician dead or alive, who would it be and what would you drink?

Rep. McGovern: I’d probably drink scotch, cause that’s what I like to drink. I’d love to have a drink with Eleanor Roosevelt.

I’ve coached to the human rights commission in the House of Representatives, so the Universal Declaration of Human Rights is a great document that means a lot to me, but Eleanor Roosevelt was the main driver behind the writing of this document that basically enshrines human rights policy for the whole world.

I think that on many issues, whether it’s human rights, equalities, or justice, or (inaudible), I’d love to just sit down and talk with her. Abbey Stevenson is another guy I’d like to sit down and have a drink with. I’d go back in history.

I’d love to sit down with FDR, Woodrow Wilson, Thomas Jefferson, and George Washington, but you know, I don’t want to be greedy. If I could sit around with Eleanor Roosevelt and have a scotch and talk about her experiences in the White House and how she was able to be a force behind the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, that would be a great thrill for me.